Donu Kogbara is a Veteran Newspaper columnist, who began her career with The Times of London and later she worked with the BBC, and the Economist. Ms. Kogbara writes a weekly column for the Vanguard newspaper in Nigeria. She is also a consultant who has worked with various government bodies and the Private Sector.
Kogbara has been talking about leadership in Nigeria, where should leadership come from, what should we expect, what are the problems that we face and the catalyst for all of this is a two-part essay she wrote recently titled, “Igbophobia: What have Igbos done to other Nigerians?” Reuben Abati took her up on her submissions in his radio programme, CityTalks with Reuben Abati on City FM, 105.1 FM. Excerpts as follows:
Reuben Abati: [Laughter] Good to see you.
Donu Kogbara: It is an honour to be invited by you [laughter]
Reuben Abati: Last week you wrote you wrote a piece “Igbophobia: What have Igbos done to other Nigerians?”
This week again you wrote a second part of the piece and you are making a case for Igbos to be the next President of Nigeria. You are saying, “An Igbo Candidate is electable and as well as good a quality candidate from elsewhere in Nigeria. Were you thinking that Nigerians are not ready for an Igbo President yet?
So, what is the offense that Igbos have committed in this Nigerian arrangement that you feel compelled to say it looks like other ethnic groups, four hundred ethnic nationalities plus that we are, as Onogu Otite and Okwudiba Nnoli have pointed out, may not want an Igbo President. Why do you think that people are not happy with Igbos?
Donu Kogbara: Just empirical evidence! The evidence of my own ears, the comments I hear during private phone conversations or face-to-face conversations with people from other ethnic groups, because I have a Niger Delta name, people don’t know that my mother is Igbo.
So, they feel very safe about expressing anti-Igbo sentiments in my presence, especially since I have concentrated my activism on Niger Delta issues in the past, so they don’t know I have any interest in Igbo Land. And I have to say Reuben, even if my mother wasn’t Igbo, I will still be disturbed by the injustice that is being inflicted on the South East.
Reuben Abati: In your piece, the first installment of the piece, you talked about certain grounds, why other Nigerians seem to be very uncomfortable with Igbos. You said for instance that Igbos are considered materialistic, Igbos are accused of having waged a war against Nigeria and so If you make an Igbo man the next President, he may be playing the politics of separatism, you talked about Igbos being mercantilist and you also talked about Igbos not bowing to other people, they think they are superior to other people. Do you want to interrogate some of those points you raised last week?
Donu Kogbara: There is no doubt that Igbos are mercantilist, more so than any other single group in this country. Generally, their intrigues are obvious, but they also have business interest. Igbos are traders, Igbos are business people, they are more likely to be interested in the bottom line than people from other groups. That doesn’t mean that you don’t find business people in other groups of course, but Igbos are more on the whole oriented that way. So, I thought, that is not the reason to dislike people. Igbos are good at entrepreneurial activity and they are good at making money and they are willing to go to any part of this country with that objective in mind. Why is that bad?
Reuben Abati: Should Igbos be denied their right to be President of Nigeria? Or are there other issues?
Donu Kogbara: The issue about Igbos being marginalized? Yes, they are marginalized! There is no doubt about that but I don’t think that is a crime. In fact, I think that they are drivers of the economy. It is good that they are good at trade and they are good at importing stuff and making stuff and that is productive economic activity.
It is good that they are less dependent on government than certain groups.
Why will you hate Igbos for being more financially independent than others for example who are totally dependent on government, except for Dangote and some of the others?
I don’t really need to be rude about the northerners, but you know they are not very productive on the whole and people don’t say, “you are very unproductive, you can never be President of Nigeria.” But Igbos are chastised for regenerating wealth.
Another point, look at all the controversy and ill-feeling over issues like herdsmen, or some of the things that northerners have done or shall I say Fulani specifically, people don’t say oh because of that and they are Fulani or Fulani herdsmen; that no Fulani should ever be President of Nigeria again.
What I find extraordinary about this whole “Igbo issue,” is that people seize on any excuse to say that they are more entitled to the Presidency. There are lots of reasons. Prejudice is never an attractive quality in any of us. I think we all have some prejudices very deep in us. For some it is more overt than it is in others. But I just think that the dislike of Igbos is too widespread and too open. It is too close to the surface.
Reuben Abati: I know that you followed up on the column again this week, you wrote a part two, why did you feel compelled to write about that?
Donu Kogbara: Well because even after I have listed to all the criticisms people level against Igbos, and tried to provide rejoinders, people still came back at me saying, “what’s wrong with you?”
If Igbos are hated, there must be a good reason for it. So, when I asked them, what is the good reason for it, they couldn’t give me any answer. That’s the people I was able to engage with, personally. So, I just felt that I should follow up and say that I think we can all do better than this. I think that bigotry is beneath us all and I am particularly disappointed by young people who have been pocketed, because I expect them to be more progressive than the elders.
I am not even saying that Igbos must have the Presidency in 2023. I am saying that they should be entitled to it as anybody else and as politically viable as anybody else.
Actually, I have mixed feelings about the whole zoning issues anyway. So, you can’t deny that at the moment, the two that have never had the Presidency are North East and the South East.
So, if you want it to go round, those are the two zones that are entitled to it; with Igbos coming first, in my opinion.
Reuben Abati: If you looked at the papers today (12th February, 2022), some of the papers are reporting that Former Vice President Atiku Abubakar, is saying that there is no such thing called zoning in the Nigerian Constitution.
I bring this up because you just mentioned the point about zoning and the whole South East agenda, or Southern agenda with regards to the Southern Governors Forum about zoning. But former Vice President Atiku Abubakar is saying that the Nigerian constitution does not recognize zoning and it is in order for anybody from any part of the country to aspire to become President in 2023.
What do you think?
Donu Kogbara: He would say that, wouldn’t he? Because like for the 20th time he is running for President and he is a Northerner. So obviously he is being a bit facetious. This is probably his 4th chance.
So, you can’t blame him, wanting to deny the relevance of Zoning. I supported Atiku in 2019 so you know I’m not against him. I just think well…to be honest with you Reuben, I don’t want to think about it.
It is an insane world, if one of the best candidates keeps coming from the same part of the country, but Nigeria is not like that and the truth is that you can find worthy candidates from every zone. So, let’s not pretend that Osinbajo and Tinubu are the only viable candidates in Nigeria, and Umahi and Orji Uzor Kalu are the only good ones.
In the North, there are one or two worth considering, but I haven’t decided yet who to vote for.
Reuben Abati: You have been writing articles back-to-back, supporting Igbo Presidency and here you say you have candidates from other parts of the country. That’s quite interesting.
Donu Kogbara: Let Igbos bring their best foot forward because when you start with one hand behind your back, you have to bring special people.
Reuben Abati: So, you are saying that some of the Igbos that have stepped forward; you don’t consider them “special people”. Is that what you’re saying
Donu Kogbara: So far, the ones that have thrown their hats into the ring, let me be really blunt to say, that I have no regard whatsoever, but Rochas Okorocha, Orji Uzor Kalu; no, I don’t!
I’m waiting for better materials to come forward, sometimes when I say I have no regards for someone, it may not be that I dislike them personally. It might just be a belief that politically and in terms of governance capabilities, they do not impress me.
The ones from my own zone which is the South-South well, let me just keep quiet for now. None of them have yet formally thrown their hearts into the ring and I hope they do because I’m compelled to make some very nasty remarks.
Reuben Abati: [Laughter] Rochas responding to you may just say this is a case of Iberiberism. But there are others who have also thrown their hats into the ring. How about Peter Obi?
Peter the rock. He is a man that is well liked.
Donu Kogbara: Has he decleared?
Reuben Abati: Yes! He said that he is interested in this game and there is Orji Uzor Kalu, the Senatorial Chief Whip. He too has said that he is interested. There is Anyim Pius Anyim who has had significant experience as Senate President, as Secretary to the government of the Federation.
Are you throwing all those ones away also?
Donu Kogbara: They don’t set my heart aflame with inspiration.
Reuben Abati: Meaning maybe you don’t think they are good enough?
Donu Kogbara: Peter Obi seems like a very sort of super down-to-earth person. He’s got some good credentials. I’ve heard things about him, I don’t really know him and I’m yet to see anything about him that makes me think, oh wow yes that’s the one.
As for Pius Ayim. Nothing personal, but again, I am not excited by the prospect. Maybe as the campaign proceeds, some of these guys will warm up and start being passionate and saying the kind of things that we want to hear but so far nada.
Reuben Abati: But If we go outside of the South East zone, some other persons who have also shown interest, who are your favourites and I know that you have mentioned Kayode Fayemi, you have mentioned someone else but there also Northerners who want to be part of this and the northerners are saying through the Northern Elders Forum , through the Northern Leaders of Thought Forum, that look it will not be fair to say that northerners cannot be part of this prospect because the constitution does not exclude anybody. What do you think?
Donu Kogbara: I’m a little bit tired of them. As of 2010 when we were celebrating our 50th anniversary, since Independence. I think Goodluck Jonathan was President and then I remember a lot of Northerners agitating that if we could only do one term and because it will be their turn after him, because Yar’Adua didn’t survive to serve two terms. I remember checking and discovering that out of the 50 years that had elapsed since independence, Northerners have run this country for 36 out of the 50 and they have the audacity to talk about being marginalized. And they had the audacity to say that Goodluck should only serve one term.
I later decided that I was not going to support Dr Jonathan’s second term aspiration but I stand by his right to run a second term. I stood by his rights around the second term.
So now that northerners are now saying eh… we should not be ruled out.
Come on, what is this born to rule mentality?! “This we must have a big slice mentality.” I have Northern friends who are interested.
I have friends who work for Bala Mohammed, Governor of Bauchi who is interested. They tell me very good things about him. If the guy wins, I don’t mind. If he is, as they tell me he is; I don’t mind.
Underneath all that is the willingness to give people a chance. But wherever they are from, I’m uncomfortable about their idea that the North should have the Presidency again.
Reuben Abati: Let us talk about women representation in the political process, decision making in Nigeria
In the last few weeks on the other platform AriseTv, I had the cause to talk to Khadijat Okunnu-Lamidi who wants to be President of Nigeria, she doesn’t even have a political party platform yet. Her example raises that big issue about women representation.
We also spoke on Arise Tv with a young lady called Olatorera Majekodunmi-Oniru , she wants to go to the Senate. When you look at the entire field and you add Ekiti State, that is looking forward to gubernatorial elections on June 18, even the main female representative there Biodun Olujimi on the platform of the PDP had to withdraw because the Nigerian political environment is rigged against the Nigerian woman and people talk about it. People are just patronizing and not walking the talk. Even the Nigerian woman does not support the Nigerian woman.
How do you feel about that?
Donu Kogbara: I am a feminist somebody who wants to be outraged when women are undermined.
But I will say actually that my experience has been that the single biggest problem women have in Nigeria is sexual harassment.
What I mean by that is that, it’s actually really difficult, I have lived in Abuja now for 22 years. Only God know why, it is really difficult to get anything here without sleeping with somebody.
I say this openly and unequivocally. Nigerian men find it really hard to help or promote women who are not their girlfriends. What I am trying to say is that, that in itself is an obstacle, because it puts you at the mercy of all kinds of guys who will not give you a chance unless you are their girlfriend or their favourite girlfriend.
I salute women who have managed to get past that barrier and do well despite it.
Reuben Abati: President Buhari has been saying to the APC that young people should be allowed to take ownership of the party and of the political process. We know that we have the not too young to run bill which was also passed into law by the same administration, but are the young people in Nigeria ready?
These people are perpetually on YouTube, Instagram, Twitter and many of them actually promote a lot of ignorance. Is the youth population in Nigeria ready? What do you think about this involvement of the youth who seem to have some sense of entitlement and do not have the capability as some people think to really rise up to the level.
What has happened to the youth population of Nigeria? This is not the same youth that formed those groups that moved Nigeria forward in the past. This new group is different. This is a yahoo-yahoo generation.
What are your thoughts?
Donu Kogbara: A generation, right? Regarding the old generation as problem and the younger generation as a problem, there is nothing new about the conflict of tension between our children, ourselves and our parent generation.
Every generation comes with advantages and disadvantages. I don’t think per say its automatically an advantage. I have a 36-year-old son. Do I think he should be a senator? No, I don’t.
Does he think I’m an old cargo who needs to change her ways? Yes, he does.
So, I think it really just boils down to qualities of the individuals.
Some of the people whose been Heads of State in Nigerian or Governors were very young.
Alfred Diete-Spiff who is one of the best governors that Rivers state has ever had and that’s the old Rivers. That was Rivers and Bayelsa combined apparently. He was only 25 years when he was our governor.
He did quite do well by the standards of the time. I just think that there is no such a thing as too old though.
I think there should be a cut of point maybe 70. Do I think that young people are so amazing? The answer is no!
Some of them are ok. Some of them are silly, frivolous, shallow and some of them are just as bad as we are. I’m sure they are our children. I mean a child of a corrupt governor, likely to have integrity is per se, a wonderful productive quality? No!
But I think we really need to have some kind of upper age limit on governance. And you need people who know what Zoom is and can set it up themselves.
Comments and Questions Segment:
[1st Caller: Moses from Isolo]: She said that Igbos don’t have a case. Nobody is against the Igbo man, he is against himself. Nobody is stopping the Igbo man to contest for the office of the President. Emotions will not take us anywhere… there is nothing called Igbophobia. How can they play the politics of separatism and at the same time they will say nobody likes them?
Donu Kogbara: First of all, it really annoys me to hear that Igbos don’t have a case and they have no grounds on which to feel disliked or marginalized. Anybody who says that, the opposite is true and it is utterly delusional. It is obvious that Igbos have a problem in this country.
They feel it, I see it, many people who are not Igbos see it and express it. Maybe the gentleman who just spoke doesn’t dislike Igbos personally, so he doesn’t know that Igbos are disliked. Maybe he doesn’t socialize so he has never heard anybody expressing dislike for Igbos but let me just assure him that Igbophobia is very real.
On the issue of separatism, we are talking about IPOB right? The Indigenous People Of Biafra. It is an organization that is separatist, that is radical. 95% of the Igbos I know wants nothing to do with IPOB.
They think it is extreme and do not wish to leave the Nigeria federation.
[Via WhatApp Adegboyega Adedeji] Politics requires full participation, ability to engage the people, gain support, build bridges, create alliance and recognition, this is what the South East Igbo politicians lacked over the years with denials to the number one seat of power. They have now resorted to their fate, they are ready to accept whatever that is thrown at them, that is why the idea of zoning came up to absorb them and to win their trust but sincerely not with the intention of giving them the platform to have a shot at the centre.
Reuben Abati: The caller seems to be saying, no matter what you say, nobody is interested in making an Igboman a President.
[2nd Caller: Ebi from Sango]: He said for the past 56 years nobody is talking about the Igbos
The economy of this nation is still run by the Igbos and the Igbos should be given a chance in the interest of national unity, justice, equity and fairness.
He said that we should listen to Igbos.
Donu Kogbara: I agree! Igbos should be given a chance. Let them bring a good candidate out and give the people the opportunity. The issue is not that an Igbo man must win; it is that a good candidate should not be discriminated against because he is Igbo.
Kingsley Moghalu is another one; I didn’t mention him earlier because he doesn’t belong to any of the two big parties. So, there is a tendency to believe that he doesn’t stand a chance.
This is not a country where an independent candidate can push forward like that. It has never happened before. When you have persons like Kingsley Moghalu, why shouldn’t he have a chance? Is Kingsley Moghalu inferior to the Yoruba guys or the Northerners who want to be President or who have been President in the past?
Kingsley has got what it takes… you mentioned Peter obi, I mentioned John Nwodo not that he is a candidate, but I don’t just understand this prejudice which says that somebody shouldn’t get it because they are Igbo.
If we are going to throw this thing open and become a mature country, where zoning doesn’t matter, let Igbos only have it once before we throw it open to everybody and ban zoning.
[Comments Via Zoom: Mrs. Iyamba] I don’t see why the Igbos cannot present themselves as President or Presidency. The Presidency is not given, it is earned and they should get their acts together, market their candidacy and go for it.
Nobody has stopped them from coming forth. What people say is not relevant.
[Comments Via Zoom: Yemisi Ayeni] saying that she agrees with her
[Comments Via Zoom: Mrs. Iyamba responds]: Yes, the next President needs qualities beyond being in government before.
Nigeria needs change agents! People who are ready to take hard decisions for the interest of the good of the masses.
[Comments Via Zoom: On Zulum of Borno State] - She says all the ones that that we should be looking for…all the English-speaking former governors can’t take us anywhere.
Reuben Abati: What’s your reaction to the conversation between Mrs Iyamba and Mrs Ayeni on Zoom?
Donu Kogbara: I agree with them. I actually know them; they are brilliant professionals in their own right. Women of substance. The only thing I will take issue with, is the amount of political English-speaking…I think there is a lot to be said for people who are articulate and eloquent.
Zulum is a good candidate. This country is complicated. No one zone is going to rescue this country. No one person is going to rescue this country.
What we really need is the first-eleven or first-hundreds of change agents.
[Caller: Obi Emmanuel from Ikorodu Lagos] It is actually insultive to say that there is no Igbophobia, it is glaring that it is everywhere.
To think the Igbos cannot produce the next President, it is actually an insult to the Igbo man.
We have capable people from Igbo Land.
[Via Zoom: Vora]: He doesn’t think the youths are necessarily better because they are product of the same system.
Reuben Abati: What do you think about these two issues?
Donu Kogbara: I agree with Vora. That was the point I was making earlier. Why do we assume that young people are automatically better, when we brought them up?
Are we good? Why should we think that the people we brought up will automatically be good?
He’s right! We are products of the same system and they are products of the same generation that has failed to rescue this country.
[Caller: Mohammed Ibrahim]: There is nothing like Igbophobia in this country, these Igbos should play their politics right and should not try to come into government through a backdoor and blackmailing other people that it should be us.
Power is not given; everybody should fight for it and get it.
Breaking News: Hold on, please. A group is calling on Godwin Emefiele to be President. We even hear he may address a press conference in Lagos today to declare his interest in the 2023 Presidential race. What do you think, Donu?
Donu Kogbara: I think Emefiele should resign from the Central Bank and concentrate on his political ambition. I hope this is not going to be an anything goes scenario where somebody is able to hold on to a political position that potentially, can illegally fund a political campaign.
I have nothing personal with Emefiele, I don’t know him but I do find that a little disturbing but it depends on how that is managed.
On what basis is he running… Is it on the basis of his sterling performance as Governor of Nigeria’s premier bank?
[Via WhatsApp: Bright from Lagos]: Igbos have done nothing wrong; they should bring out good candidates and stop complaining about marginalization. Talking about zoning, North Central has not produced a candidate and nobody is talking about North Central. What is so special about the South East?
Donu Kogbara: I’m not saying that South East is uniquely special. Every group in this country has some advantages and disadvantages and assets. It is just that they have not had it before. So what is wrong in giving them a chance?
[Via WhatsApp] I like your guest. She should blast them all. Anyone who says there is no Igbophobia is highly delusional and hypocritical. I am not Igbo but I support them and the senseless sense of the Northerners that they own Nigeria is disgusting and lousy. The Northerners are the problem of Nigeria. I am partly from the North…
Donu Kogbara: [Cuts in]… Igbos are asked to justify their existence and their interest in political power to extend that, the Northerners should also be asked the same question. We should all be asked the same question. If we scrutinize the northern interest in power, the way we scrutinize the South East interest in power I think they will find it difficult to explain why they have ruled this country for so many years and it is in such a mess.
[Mrs Iyamba via zoom]: CBN governor on what grounds? Well… well… well… it is his fundamental human right.
If Igbos had made a mess that others have made of this country we will never hear.
